More Miscellaneous Thoughts on Religion

" Jesus has gone to prepare mansions for every creature. Who will go down as "sons of perdition" and receive the reward of the damned? None but those who have sinned against the Holy Ghost. All others will be gathered into kingdoms where there will be a certain amount of peace and glory. Will the Methodists have their heaven? I will venture to say that John Wesley, if he never hears the Gospel preached in the world of spirits, will enjoy all the happiness and glory that he ever thought of. And so it will be with others [JD 12:274].

In the Christian world, thousands and millions of them are as close to the truth as any man that ever lived upon the face of the earth, so far as moral, Christian deportment is concerned. I can find a great many of this community who live as moral lives as men and women can [JD 6:331].

If you should have visits here from those professing to be Christians, and they intimate a desire to preach to you, by all means invite them to do so. Accord to every reputable person who may visit you, and who may wish to occupy the stands of your meeting houses to preach to you, the privilege of doing so, no matter whether he be a Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Baptist, Free-will Baptist, Methodist, or whatever he may be; and if he wishes to speak to your children let him do so [JD 14:195].

It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth [JD 7:283].

Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. .... We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons." [TPJS, p 316]

Subject: Re:Scholars
Date: Thu, May 14, 1998 03:35 EDT
From: Pistas3
Message-id: <>

<<Note that it states that God *made* Jesus both Lord and Christ. Similar to the scripture that says "Thou art my son, *this day* have I begotten you" (which, I've also pointed out, is an incorrect transmission/translation with doctrinal meaning).>>

the point of the text is that God made Jesus Lord and Christ, not that God made Jesus! try diagraming the sentence and you'll see what I mean. it is clearer in the NIV: "Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

I don't think that issue was being disputed, LeRoy....but to even say God made him ANYTHING is problematic to a co-substance, co-eternal kind of Christology. And I would go with the NEB as a more literal translation of this "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah". Its an awkward construction....literally saying in the Greek "both Lord him and Christ made God this Jesus whom you crucified". Lord, him and Christ all have the same case endings.

An anti-LDS source states:  Brigham Young taught that thieves should have their throats cut: "President Young then spoke against thieving,...said he, I should be perfectly willing to see thieves have their THROATS CUT; some of you may say, if that is your feelings Brigham, we'll lay you aside sometime, well, do it if you can; I would rather die by the hands of the meanest of all men, false brethren, than to live among thieves." (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 597)

Oh, REALLY. Here is how these hatemongers work...lets take a look at this quote in CONTEXT. This hatemonger has carefully clipped the quote so you cannot see that BY was speaking to his own people and chastizing them. And the hatemonger has carefully obscured what these pioneers were doing out in the middle of the winter anyway... and why their situation was so desperate they were resorting to thievery.

Desperate circumstances sometimes call for strong words. Their Christian neighbors had driven them out...they were in minus 12 degrees weather the day before this entry...OUTSIDE and without their HOMES and PROPERTY.

History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.39, p.597

President Young then spoke against thieving, cutting strings from wagon covers, and said the brethren had gone contrary to counsel in cutting rail timber, etc., on the camp ground and they must stop all such practices; that they had not made him. their leader of the camp as yet, but if they should do it, when they get out of the settlements where his orders could be executed, they would have justice done them, and, said he, I should be perfectly willing to see thieves have their throats cut; some of you may say, if that is your feelings Brigham, we'll lay you aside sometime, well, do it if you can; I would rather die by the hands of the meanest of all men, false brethren, than to live among thieves.

He then called upon the captains of companies to report those who were most destitute and he would divide among them the corn and oats he had brought for horse feed; there is no need of stealing, if one suffers we will all suffer, this great `I' and little `you', I cannot bear, if the guard consider the Twelve as privileged characters they must consider the high council also, and if the high council, the high priests, etc., and we should all be privileged characters; and what is the use of any guard? None at all. When I want to pass the guard I will go to the sergeant and get the password, and I want all the brethren to do the same. Let no man crowd upon the guard and let the guard know no man as a privileged character.

History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.39, p.598

President Young retired from the meeting and went to distributing his grain among the needy.'

History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.39, p.598

About eleven a, m., Captain Charles C. Rich arrived from Nauvoo and reported that he had walked over the Mississippi river on the ice at Montrose.

History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.39, p.598

Seven a. m., thermometer at 6 Fah. ; one p. m., thermometer 18 Fah. Latitude of the Camp of Israel by a meridian observation of the sun taken by Professor Orson Pratt this day was 400 31' 50", longitude 91° 16' 0".

History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.39, p.598

Bishop George Miller with about sixteen wagons and thirty or forty Pioneers started for the Des Moines,

Subject: Re: Christian Prejudice
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 19:26 EDT
From: HMartin740
Message-id: <>

tetragonos writes: << If Jimmy Carter understood what LDS teach he would not consider Mormons some one to stick up for........neither would Captain>>

here is just part of my answer to his assertion: <<Well, lets try this out. Jimmy Carter was a student of nuclear physics, a President of the United States, and he continues to be an outstanding Christian in terms of witnessing the love of Jesus. The Captain founded The Gospel Navy, is a Christian author, and does similar work to Jimmy Carter, thus also witnessing the love of Jesus to the world. (The Mormons are also well known for similar work).

Now, we might assume that two people who are high achievers for others, for Christ, and for their respective churches are more than capable of understanding what the Mormons believe and teach.

Going a step further, we might also assume that since both men have stated they do not agree with Mormonism, they have studied Mormon teachings and disagree with them based on first hand knowledge.

However, realizing that Christians can be found in every faith and denomination, living up the truth that they have; both men practice religious tolerance. That is, realize that God gives every man the free choice to worship as he pleases and to choose what faith he or she will embrace.

Now, bring into this equation someone like yourself. (meaning tetragonos) Unlike Jimmy Carter and myself you continue to attack and malign another denomination while your own undoubtedly has its own problems in need of attention. (I have never seen a denomination yet without its own crushing problems in need of attention).

Now, you come with your haughty attitude and arrogant judgments of me and Mr. Carter. You cannot explain why two Christian men are friends to the Mormons, just as they are to every other Christian denomination on earth. Therefore, you have to malign and attack them as well as the Mormons.

My friend, there is to much to be done in the world in terms of saving unchurched lost people, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, and so on, to spend so much time blasting another denomination. If you really want to do damage to the Mormon faith, go out and start saving the unchurched they are saving into your own church.

A Special Note to my Mormon friends: The last line in bold is not meant to demean or insult Mormons. It is meant to tell tetragonos that if he has so much against the Mormons, then he ought to be out working just as hard to convert people to his faith, his denomination; as Mormons are working to convert people. While he complains, Mormons, and others, are saving people to their faiths every day.

Your friend in JESUS,
Captain Harry Martin

Links on the Book of Abraham

Book of Abraham research has come a long way and is a strong witness for the LDS Church.  The general tenor of the anti-LDS attacks on the Book of Abraham can be found in Open Letter To Egyptologist Stephen Thompson which is kind of fun to read.  One wonders what Thompson's response will be.

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