More Miscellaneous Thoughts on Religion

Subject: Re: Christian Prejudice
Date: Tue, May 12, 1998 14:31 EDT
From: HMartin740
Message-id: <>

tetragonos writes: << But, like it or not, the Mormon poster must sooner or later return in the finitistic conception of God upon both his technical theology and his theological myths are founded. Here Mormons reveal the radical nature of its heresy:>>

I think a quote from Jimmy Carter I posted on the SBC board addresses your post quite well.

Here it is for you to read, tetragonos:

Jimmy Carter, a devout Southern Baptist, had this to say in an interview about the SBC convention in SLC:

" Bringing the convention to Salt Lake City has drawn criticism from former President Jimmy Carter, whose religious books and activism have made him one of the best-known Southern Baptists. "I think that the worst thing that we can do, among the worst things we can do as believers in Christ, is to spend our time condemning others who profess faith in Christ and try to have a narrow definition of who is and who is not an acceptable believer and a child of God," he was quoted as saying in December."

Jimmy Carter hits the nail on the head. And it shows that many SBC members are as uncomfortable with the SBC attitude about Mormons as many non-Mormons, and Mormons are.

Your friend in JESUS,

Captain Harry Martin

Response to comments pointing out extreme errors and why the LDS are not allowed to disagree:

On this board they are entitled to say that the LDS have horns, believe that cattle have higher souls than humans, and are followers of Vishnu and Kali Durga if they want.

*If* you post to disagree with them, because this is a fellowship board, you can't.

So, if they say "The Mormons have lied to you. One more time, MORMONS DO NOT TEACH THAT JESUS IS GOD. THEY LIE. HE IS GOD. " they are entitled to.

From a Monist viewpoint (and many Baptists are Monists -- very close to the Coptic Church in that regard alone), you might note that the LDS aren't teaching the same thing that the Baptists are all -- especially since the LDS believe more along the line that Christ ascended to "My God and Your God, My Father and Your Father" than went back to Heaven and became God again.

True, this isn't what most scholars think of when they study the beliefs of the Primative or Early Christian Church or even the Helenized Christian Church (pre Catholic era) or Historic Western Christianity (Roman Catholic) ... but then "most" scholars don't really believe with much fervor either, so the Baptists are on good ground when they reject that part of scholarship

(I know, you and those scholars you study with love God, are members of many denominations and consider yourselves scholars, but that doesn't mean that groups like the guys trying to replace the New Testament with the Gospel of Thomas aren't scholars too).

We both know that lots of Baptists are good people (especially the ones who prayed regularly for I and my family the last five years). I've known many I could respect and love.

Anyway, that is why you aren't allowed to disagree with the posters on that board -- even if you are 100% right and they are 100% wrong.

A wonderful quote from Richard P. McBrien "What is the Kingdom of God? -- A Theologian Explains the Key Image of the Gospel" Catholic Update (1980), p. 2

(after all, both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith stated that one could find truth in other religious viewpoints ...)

"It [the kingdom of God] exists wherever God's will is at work.And God's will is at work wherever people are faithful to the command that we love one another ... We can define the king-dom of God as the redemptive presence of God. This redemptive(or saving) presence of God can be found in everyday personalexperiences... When we pray, "Thy kingdom come," we arehoping also for the inbreaking of God's power -- right now --in our daily lives.  Our God is a living God.  God's power is apresent power."


Also, from Joseph Frankovic's The Kingdom of Heaven (from the Jerusalem Bible Class Series, HaKesher, Inc.) at pages 31-32.

"The kingdom of heaven resembles a concept in rabbinic Judaismcalled tikun ha-olam, which literally means "mending the world."When one enters (or joins) the kingdom of heaven, one becomesa partner with God in spreading redemption throughout a hurting world.  That person goes out and feeds the hungry; clothes thenaked; visits those who are in the hospital and prison; prays forthe sick and defends the rights of the orphan and widow.  A per-son who has

entered the kingdom of heaven gets involved inpeople's lives.  He or she pursues a lifestyle characterized bymending our world; where there is hatred, he or she sows love;where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; wherethere is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light' and wherethere is sadness, joy."

From the LDS discussion on the SBC discussion ...

The following is a quote from the first poster I read [on the COMB->Denominations->Baptist->Southern Baptist].

"Subject: Re: The Mormon Puzzle
Date: Tue, May 12, 1998 03:23 EDT
From: Navojoa
Message-id: <>


I agree with you and may I add, that we should try to study with them, and try to understand where they come from instead of criticizing them. They have many excellent qualities that other denominations do not have.

I have cousins that are Mormons, and I have never seen such christianity in their family circle and care for their children and for others. I saw also their unselfish attitude towards all churches in regards to disasters and their program in case of disasters. They keep enough supply of food and water in case of disasters, not just for themselves, but for their neighbors to share. Not many denominations do that.

I have never met a Mormon that does not reflect a christian attitude. Yes, some of their teachings and secrecy, we disagree with and some are unbiblical, but what denomination does not have falsehooh in their teachings? Sure, when you belong to one of them, you claim that you do not have false teachings, but when compared with scriptures, it does not hold water. Catholics, Baptist, Mormons, Lutherans, Jehova's Wiotnesses, Adventist, etc.,are all alike, and they all strive to be First, only one to have the truth, and everybody else is wrong. Why is it that you never see a "Second Baptist Church", or Second Adventist Church", or "Second Church of Christ", etc. They all are first, and none is last, yet, the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

All denominations bash each other, as if that was the comission that Christ gave us. If the saved are in the church, why do Churches steal Christians from other churches instead of looking for the lost as Christ did? He came to save the lost, we should do as he did. The saved does not need salvation if he is saved, neither does he needs to change churches or bash others.

If anybody wants to bash churches, why not pick on the money sucker TV preachers? What ever happened to discernment of spirits? Can people see through them, that all they are doing is getting rich in the name of the Lord? The Baker's, the Swaggart's, the Gant's, the Tilton's, the Hinn's, the Falwel's, the Crouch's, the one in Oklahoma with the tower of prayer, his name scapes me, and others.

But then, that was not what Christ wants us to do. We should never consider every individual in these churches as the same as their leader who is deceving them. Go after the deceiver and not the congregation. If you expose the deceiver, the congregation will be saved.

God bless."

>>The other problem is that even the evangelical scholars say that the anti Mormon books by Martin and his buddies are not accurate representations of Mormonism.<<

You might want to add to this the highly legalistic nature of fundamentalist Christianity which precludes anyone from being Christian who does not follow the narrow guidelines of their beliefs. In the book I am currently reading, "Stealing Jesus", the author makes this interesting point which I think clarifies the often confusing situation between Mormons and BAC's.

>>But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love. Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. If conservative Christiansemphasize the Great Commission--the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples"--liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." <<

While certainly many Mormons would feel we follow the more liberal philosophy I would think, somewhat in disillusionment, that we often follow the legal doctrine. The author continues by giving some interesting contrasts between legalistic and love based doctrines:

I guess the question that we can now ask is which camp we stand in? Frankly, I don't worry about the naysayers because they are of little meaning to our beliefs. What really matters is not what BB or Ronny believes but what we believe. Constant correcting of the anti's rhetoric does little to change the mind of this muckrakers and has a tendency to promote a sense of aggression and defensiveness on our parts.

Subject: Re: Anti Mormonism
Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 14:22 EDT
From: EnemyAce
Message-id: <>

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